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[0:13] <josch> pavlix: well there is no argueing over the reason now that the product is finished ;)
[0:14] <josch> Mrkva: displayport would have the advantage of being able to connect dvi and hdmi and vga devices only by one small passive adapter
[0:14] <josch> if one has only a hdmi port one needs some active electronics converting the signal
[0:14] <josch> this would have been an advantage of displayport
[0:16] <josch> i use displayport on my laptop to connect a hdmi tv and only need a small usb stick sized adapter for it - when opening it up i saw it is mostly empty so there is no reason why there shouldn't be even smaller adapters
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[0:33] <mjr> dp->vga requires an active adapter. Also, dp->dvi/hdmi isn't a given, but many (most?) current dp products are "dp++" and can produce hdmi-signaling as well. The simple adapter corrects for signal levels.
[0:35] <mjr> anyway, understandable decision for the prevalence of hdmi stuff, especially in consumer electronics. dp++ would be strictly better, but can't have everything.
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[0:51] <taruti> mjr: what do you think about the new design?
[0:52] <josch> mjr: ah true - what i meant is of course dp++ but i also never saw hardware that had dp but no dp++
[0:53] <MMlosh> so.. it should be possible to use it with standard DVI display?
[0:54] <MMlosh> (I mean - one that can't decipher HDMI signals)
[0:54] <mjr> taruti, promising, will wait for practical feedback
[0:55] <josch> i dont think i want to wait any longer (since february) and just get myself a touchbook once they send me the mail about having the new option
[0:55] * MMlosh is waiting for photos and more documentation (is WiFi/Bluetooth onboard or removable in touchbook v2? It is sure integrated in smartbook..)
[0:55] <josch> i just fear that if i wait now then i will wait for 7 months again
[0:56] <josch> so i rather take the risk
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[0:57] * mjr also guesses that displaylink has hdmi/dvi output more readily available in their chips, but haven't checked recently on dp products
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[7:31] <t_s_o> while i dont often complain about resolution, that 480x320 minibook is a bit short of the target imo
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[7:50] <leinir> Hmm... Yeah, that's a bit on the tiny side :)
[7:50] <leinir> What's that, though?
[7:50] <leinir> (in other words: link plz ;) )
[7:51] <leinir> Aah right, never mind, i got it ;)
[7:53] * leinir still thinks that MeeGo should be a focus...
[7:55] * leinir is personally not exactly happy with the capacitative touch screen, but oh well
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[8:00] <MMlosh> leinir, a lot of companies focused on eye-candy invested into them.. perhaps they can be better... but it's the same situation as DRAM v.s. SRAM.. If I anyone bothered to improve SRAM technology, I would choose them (they are 3x bigger, so what..)
[8:01] <leinir> Personally what annoys me is that it takes away my choice
[8:01] <leinir> I no longer have the option of performing pixel-precise input with a stylus, i now have to use the 15x15 pixel wide tip of my finger
[8:02] <leinir> a wacom hydrid, then i'd be all kinds of happy, but this? No, sorry, that's not useful to me
[8:03] <leinir> But i know i'm a minority, so i'm sure it's a market wise decision
[8:03] <leinir> It just renders the device useless to me ;)
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[8:14] <leinir> But it's no secret that gregorie hates stylii, so it's hardly a surprise that it'd go this way anyway :)
[8:17] <MMlosh> leinir, what? AFAIK resistive displays are more tolerant to stuff you use to poke them, aren't they?
[8:18] <leinir> ressistive touch screens will accept anything as an input device, capacitative ones require a current to be able to pass through the item you use
[8:18] <leinir> (it's a bit more involved, but in a nut-shell)
[8:19] <leinir> This also means that you can't use a capacitative touch screen if your fingers are too cold ;)
[8:19] <MMlosh> so.. a stylus-hater tends to choose resistive display..
[8:19] <MMlosh> true.. and gloves...
[8:20] <MMlosh> is this capacitive thing going to work with a pencil?
[8:20] <leinir> No
[8:20] <leinir> and stylus-haters would choose capacitative screens, not because they hate the stylus, but because it works better with fingers than a ressistive screen does
[8:20] <leinir> They simply don't care that it doesn't work /at all/ with stylii
[8:21] * MMlosh does not get that.. He uses his fingernails in >50% of cases on his resistive-screened phone
[8:22] <MMlosh> I believe they did that because of the multitouch feature I don't need
[8:22] <leinir> resistive screens, you can use a fingernail
[8:23] <leinir> capacitative screens (such as the iPhone, HTC Desire, etc...) you have to use your fingertip
[8:23] <leinir> And yes, multitouch is nice, but i'd rather have precise input than that
[8:23] <Mrkva> oh come on!
[8:24] <Mrkva> courses from 12:45 to 19:30 :(
[8:24] <Mrkva> school sucks :)
[8:24] <MMlosh> leinir, perhaps it would be possible to overlay the screen with USB resistive one..
[8:25] <MMlosh> if it proves to be so useless as expected
[8:25] <leinir> i won't find out, as i won't be buying this one :)
[8:25] <leinir> i bought the first one, which was alright, but this one i'll skip
[8:30] <leinir> i'll save my monies for now, until someone pushes out a device with a Pixel Qi screen with a wacom hybrid surface ;)
[8:31] <leinir> Preferably one which runs MeeGo, of course ;)
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[9:49] <paulk_> hi!
[9:49] <paulk_> I just saw the new AI devices, I think it's just incredible !
[9:50] <paulk_> But I'd like to know : is it fully free softaware, I mean no blobs and no ugly firmwares to make that work ?
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[9:57] <leinir> paulk_: try that again ;)
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[9:59] <paulk_> leinir: what do you mean ?
[9:59] <leinir> paulk_: i mean ask again now we have an employee in here :)
[9:59] <leinir> *points at alextisserant*
[9:59] <paulk_> okay :)
[10:00] <paulk_> so, alextisserant, is only free software used to make the awesome AI products work (I mean, no ugly firmware or blob) ?
[10:01] <paulk_> Also, I have a few other questions :)
[10:01] <alextisserant> there is nothing ugly in our devices, please ;-)
[10:01] <alextisserant> but I think "almost", yeah
[10:01] <alextisserant> you should ask Gregoire on the dev list
[10:01] <paulk_> all right, I'll do that
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[10:02] <MMlosh> Can I have a HW question? - is wifi/bluetooth onboard, or as USB dongle in TBv2/Smarbook?
[10:02] <mjr> no ugly firmware is a pipe dream, sadly... at least the first touchbook had the infamous and ultra-proprietary 3d silicon, probably the new ones still. There's little choice in the area though :I
[10:03] <mjr> That requires actual proprietary linux-side driver to take advantage of. The other stuff, like video decoders for the DSP, while proprietary, didn't require that at least last I checked.
[10:04] <MMlosh> mjr, things can be even worse... do you know the OpenMoko Freerunner phone?
[10:04] <mjr> know it, I have it :]
[10:04] <paulk_> I also do
[10:04] <MMlosh> mjr, I knew it...
[10:04] <mjr> the glamo business did go sour, but hindsight and all that
[10:06] <paulk_> there is still work on glamo and It's pretty fast with the lastest kernel
[10:06] <MMlosh> well.. I think it was worse... no binary driver AND no free documentation
[10:06] <mjr> paulk_, indeed, that's something of a small miracle :]
[10:06] <paulk_> :)
[10:07] <paulk_> Now, what about the Mini Book MID ?
[10:07] <paulk_> Is there any possibility to use another OS than Android on it ?
[10:08] <MMlosh> alextisserant, is the Wifi/Bluetooth in a form of USB dongle in TouchbookV2 (I am sure it's integrated in MID)?
[10:08] <alextisserant> It's integrated in MID
[10:08] <MMlosh> I mean TouchbookV2 case (there is no MID, right:)
[10:10] <MMlosh> alextisserant, is it integrated even in Touchbook2 (there is no MID, or is it?)
[10:10] <EiNSTeiN_> I have a quick one: I have an order placed for a touchbook (v1), when can I expect to receive details for the upgrade?
[10:11] <alextisserant> it's also integrated in TBv2 in the core system board (which is basically a MID board without some connectors / buttons
[10:12] <alextisserant> EiNSTeiN_: within a couple of weeks
[10:12] <MMlosh> thanks.. I have one more: does the MIDs "docking connector" contain something like... usable USB ?
[10:13] <EiNSTeiN_> thanks
[10:14] <paulk_> Also, is there a jack output conector on the MID ?
[10:15] <MMlosh> paulk_, for sure, no.. only HDMI and "docking"
[10:15] <paulk_> does HDMI contains sound ?
[10:17] <Corsac> yes
[10:17] <Corsac> well, maybe
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[10:17] <Corsac> not sure if you were asking about the norm or the touchbook :)
[10:18] <paulk_> the MID (Mini Book)
[10:21] <MMlosh> alextisserant, is it necessary to higlight you when we have a question?
[10:21] <MMlosh> Does "docking connector" have easily usable interfaces like USB or sound?
[10:21] <alextisserant> if you want to be sure to have an answer, I guess so
[10:22] <MMlosh> ok
[10:22] <alextisserant> so fror the docking connector, you will have the pin-by-pin description today on the wiki
[10:22] <alextisserant> for the MID board, you can already check out http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/MID_board
[10:23] <MMlosh> OK.. are there connectors for sale?
[10:23] <tommd> Great, now all we need is software.
[10:23] <tommd> (noting the last "official" version was January)
[10:23] <MMlosh> alextisserant, there was also a question about HDMI. does is carry sound? is it compatible with DVI displays?
[10:24] <alextisserant> no, only video
[10:24] <paulk_> ok :)
[10:25] <MMlosh> alextisserant, is it DVI-compatible?
[10:26] <alextisserant> what do you exactly mean?
[10:26] <MMlosh> ability to plug it into common DVI computer display
[10:27] <paulk_> with something like this : http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.31738 I guess
[10:27] <MMlosh> certain HDMI products do not work with computer displays because of the "content protection".. I'd like to be sure that this isn't the case
[10:28] <alextisserant> I don't think there should be any problem
[10:28] <alextisserant> I will check
[10:29] <MMlosh> paulk_, This? I don't think this HDMI carries analog signal.. I have this one http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22964
[10:32] <paulk_> Yes, the one I linked was VGA, sorry :)
[10:32] <alextisserant> for those who were wondering about the "docking" 40-pin connector: http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/40-pin_connector
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[10:44] <Corsac> alextisserant: so I didn't say crap on the forum, there's only one board in the smartbook, and the tablet only has the usb connectors (and maybe bluetooth?)
[10:45] <Corsac> alextisserant: no heat problem in the mid? (I guess it's quite crowded in there?)
[10:45] <alextisserant> actually you have 2 boards: MID board + tablet board
[10:45] <alextisserant> tablet board hosts all the external connectors indeed
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[10:45] <Corsac> ok
[10:46] <alextisserant> (more pictures to come)
[10:46] <Corsac> cool :)
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[11:09] <acks> MMlosh: the HDCP stuff will not work with some displays because the video source encrypts the video, I don't think AI plans on encrypting the video output like that ;)
[11:11] <MMlosh> acks, agreed.. I prefer to be sure, that's all. I even know, that there is a "U5: Texas Instruments TFP410 PanelBus DVI Transmitter 165MHz" chip..
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[11:16] <alextisserant> Corsac: http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Smart_Book_top_part
[11:27] <GNUtoo|laptop> hi, do you use xorg or kdrive?
[11:30] <tommd> I'm sure you ment that question to pertain to one of the AI products some how, but I'm not sure how. The TouchBook Ubuntu and AIOS use xorg.
[11:30] <GNUtoo|laptop> ok
[11:30] <GNUtoo|laptop> AIOS handle rotation like xrandr -o 1 right?
[11:30] <GNUtoo|laptop> how does it do that ?
[11:31] <tommd> nope
[11:31] <tommd> see the "ai_daemon" and the "ai_daemon_cli"
[11:31] <GNUtoo|laptop> ok
[11:31] <GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look
[11:32] <tommd> http://git.alwaysinnovating.com/cgit.cgi/ai.tools/tree/ai-daemon/ai-daemon-client.c
[11:33] <tommd> GNUtoo|laptop: ^^
[11:33] <tommd> Thats the client code. Backup the url one directory and you can see the other half.
[11:33] <GNUtoo|laptop> thanks I wondered what .c file to open
[11:34] <Corsac> alextisserant: so the tablet is common to Smartbook and TouchBookv2
[11:34] <alextisserant> correct
[11:34] <Corsac> alextisserant: and in TBv2 case, the MID is replaced by a ???standard??? board
[11:34] <Corsac> ok
[11:34] <alextisserant> yes
[11:34] <Corsac> (and I guess the back panel isn't the same either?)
[11:35] <GNUtoo|laptop> http://git.alwaysinnovating.com/cgit.cgi/ai.tools/tree/ai-daemon/rotation.sh
[11:35] <GNUtoo|laptop> nice
[11:36] * GNUtoo|laptop wonder why there is :0 and :1
[11:36] <tommd> where?
[11:37] <GNUtoo|laptop> http://git.alwaysinnovating.com/cgit.cgi/ai.tools/tree/ai-daemon/rotation.sh
[11:37] <GNUtoo|laptop> also....
[11:37] <GNUtoo|laptop> how to use omap's fb2
[11:37] <tommd> Oh, huh
[11:37] <GNUtoo|laptop> I'll look in oe's xorg.conf
[11:38] <GNUtoo|laptop> but I bet it's autodetected
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[11:42] <GNUtoo|laptop> btw is the keyboard attach fragility fixed in newer models?
[11:48] <tommd> Do you live in California?
[11:48] <tommd> If so, drive over and trade GG a beer for an in-person glance ;-)
[11:51] <GNUtoo|laptop> I'm in europe
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[11:52] <GNUtoo|laptop> are you sure that it uses xorg?
[11:52] <GNUtoo|laptop> I'll check
[11:52] <GNUtoo|laptop> because I can't reproduce the rotation on my omap3 device
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[12:17] <tommd> GNUtoo|laptop: They have custom drivers and other kernel modifications, so it's not surprising you can't reproduce on different software + slightly different hardware.
[12:17] <GNUtoo|laptop> maybe that:
[12:17] <GNUtoo|laptop> omapfb.vrfb=<y|n> - Use VRFB rotation for all framebuffers.
[12:19] <paulk_> Another question : is it possible to use a smartbook without he MID and without the keyboard (so just as a tablet) ?
[12:19] <paulk_> s/he MID/the MID/
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[12:20] <paulk_> I guess that's the case (according to the Smart Book cheat sheet)
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[14:14] <pavlix> josch: I hope the products are not only finished, but will also be shipped
[14:15] <pavlix> I've lived several months without getting any notice that the shipping is postponed or what
[14:17] <EiNSTeiN_> pavlix: same here.. i'm sure it will be worth the wait
[14:19] <pavlix> EiNSTeiN_: I hope so :)
[14:20] <EiNSTeiN_> optimism ftw!
[14:29] <pavlix> EiNSTeiN_: what are you now interested in, touchbook or smartbook?
[14:30] <EiNSTeiN_> probably the smartbook since it has everything
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[14:32] <EiNSTeiN_> I was already commited to spending 400$ with the v1, I'll probably spend the extra 160$ for a smartbook
[14:32] <EiNSTeiN_> and sell the netbook I bought in the meantime :)
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[15:00] <pavlix> nice
[15:00] <pavlix> I'm confused by the number of usb's
[15:00] <pavlix> touchbook vs smartbook
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[17:08] <touchbookuser> (AIOS) when using midori and browsing alwaysinnovating.com should scrolling take between 3-5 seconds to refresh?
[17:23] <tommd> Sounds like you have an old 256MB model - I didn't have that issue with the 512MB version.
[17:23] <tommd> Particularly not with midori
[17:24] <tommd> FYI, the new release appears to be getting uploaded right now guys.
[17:27] <touchbookuser> yay
[17:32] <touchbookuser> it's the first wave that was released, how can i check the RAM in AIOS?
[17:33] <touchbookuser> and is that easy to upgrade?
[17:33] <tommd> cat /proc/meminfo
[17:33] <tommd> touchbookuser: And no, you can't upgrade ram in the vast majority of ARM devices.
[17:36] <touchbookuser> man, well is tthere any hope for this thing to ever be more userfriendly?
[17:42] <tommd> touchbookuser: You're asking me? I find XMonad + 3 terminals user friendly, so I consider anything with a keyboard and screen userfriend.
[17:42] <tommd> touchbookuser: But FYI, Ubuntu 10.10 Alpha + the latest AI kernel seem to play very well together.
[17:47] <touchbookuser> tommd: im looking forward to it
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[18:18] <touchbookuser> i guess my only option for improved preformance will be to sell this older model and buy a new one. :(
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[18:23] <tommd> touchbookuser: Or run a less-bloated desktop
[18:23] <tommd> I did have a 486/25 with 4MB of ram once. It could play many games and surf the net fine. Sometimes I need to remind myself of that.
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[18:41] <tommd> alextisserant: Could we get the kernel modules uploaded to ai.com/release/ for 2.6.32?
[18:43] <alextisserant> yes
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[22:59] <Corsac> hmmh
[22:59] <Corsac> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/company/commitments.htm part4 is interesting
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